Discussion about this post

User's avatar
Kolmogorov's Ghost's avatar

Great post! Agree generally but I think it's worth pointing out too aspects that don't carry over to the US (maybe also to other places but I wouldn't know).

1. The (relative) financial advantage of doing the PhD. Most people doing a PhD in the US (at least in STEM) could make >2x more working instead (>5x more if they went to a good undergrad) and there aren't really tax advantages. Plus, the resume boost is not very large AFAIK unless you're gunning for really specific jobs and those tend to be selective enough that they won't take you if you just scrape by during your PhD.

2. Not having to move cities for the PhD is very rare in the US. Some people stay in the same school but the vast majority go somewhere else and most schools are far away from each other.

Eric Fish, DVM's avatar

"This may sound ridiculous, or ridiculously arrogant, but let me clarify my point: I’m not trying to persuade you of my own intellect, I’m arguing that getting a PhD actually doesn’t require particularly high intellect nor does it require particularly hard work—objectively. Yet the societal perception of a PhD is that of a Herculean or even Sisyphean task (almost the opposite is true, as I will explain)."

Well, I'll give you points for honesty, it DOES sound ridiculous AND arrogant! I am not totally sure of your motives writing this, but I certainly hope it is either tongue-in-cheek, or deliberate rage-bait to go viral and grow your new Substack, because the most charitable thing I can say is your experience is very much *NOT* the norm of STEM PhDs in the United States, and from my professional circle, most of the world.

I am not sure how generalizable your quoted 16% drop-out rate is, because many studies suggest the attrition number in engineering, medicine, and the life sciences is closer to 40-50%. Perhaps half of all doctoral students, who already completed a bachelors +/- masters (a small minority of the population already) are just dummies? IMO, no, Occam's razor would suggest the most likely explanation is PhDs are difficult.

"Having been admitted to the PhD programme, what did I have to do to actually get the degree?

I had to attain adequate termly reports from my supervisor

I had to complete a first year report with a viva voce examination

I had to present my work once in four years at an internal departmental seminar

I had to eventually write my thesis, which doesn’t have a minimum word requirement, and then be examined on it in another viva voce."

If every PhD program was like that, I would agree it would be pretty easy. But that is not really the case! For my own PhD in molecular biology at a not-very-prestigious school in the southeastern US, I had to:

Complete 2 full years of additional courses in molecular biology, oncology and statistics (even though I already had another doctorate), some of which was quite rigorous in terms of not only the content, but also the tests and papers required (this was also in the pre-ChatGPT era)

Present my work *annually* at the school, and strongly encouraged at national conferences

Pass preliminary oral AND written exams by committee before beginning dissertation work (I agree that most people pass their prelims, but that is not the rate limiting step of PhDs anywhere, the tough part is the research)

Conduct novel research that would lead to at least two peer-reviewed publications (and ideally more)

I had to write and submit multiple extramural grants. The proposal did not have to be successfully funded, but submission was a requirement

Write up research results in a dissertation (mine was around 200 pages) and defend in front of committee

What makes a PhD difficult, and indeed more challenging than my STEM bachelor's or other doctorate in vetmed, is that nothing is guaranteed. You can end up in a nightmare project that implodes, and your PhD can be over. Some people can eke out a PhD with negative results; most can't. You can have a PI who never stops asking for more experiments, more papers, and other hoops, delaying you endlessly. You can run out of funding. Members of your committee can stonewall you for political or personal reasons (not the most common, but it happens). In contrast, pretty much every other degree out there (including med school!) follows a linear course, and if you check all the boxes and pass the tests, congrats, you get the diploma. Not the case for PhD.

If you want to make the case for more uniformity in graduate training, I'm all for it. But please, don't go shitting on thousands of people's careers just because you had a somewhat easier path. Thanks!

170 more comments...

No posts

Ready for more?